Posts by Cold Steel

5

If God is so set on devoted "worship", why didn't he create animals with abilities to do this as well?

by lurk3r in

not sure if the way i phrased this sounds retarded or not, but i feel it's a legit thought.

god creates the earth giving it "life".

gives animals and the rest of his creation the same, but never created them to "worship".

Cold Steel

All things have a purpose and we aren’t God’s first creations. I’ve always thought the idea of God being a singular being, with no peers or companions, who existed for countless googolplexes of millennias with no one else around except for Him. And then, for whatever reason, he gets up one day and thinks how nice it would be to have intelligent creatures who would worship him. So it takes him six “eras,” or days, to create Earth, when, if He has power to speak a universe into existence in a fraction of a second, He can’t do instantly. What are the six eras of time for? Well, in my view it’s just priestcraft.

If there’s a God, and I believe there is, I don’t think he’s vain enough to go into the creation business for company, nor do I think He filled the immensity of space with matter, anti-matter, dark matter and any other kind of matter just so He could put one planet in one galaxy and then stock it with animals and plants and everything else just so He would have someone to praise Him.

One scholar writes:

“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth” (Genesis 1:1). Why did He do so? asks the atheist. To put people on earth that they may worship God, comes the traditional Christian reply. “Suppose that an infinite God exists, what can we do for him? Being infinite, he is conditionless; being conditionless, he cannot be benefited or injured. He cannot want. He has. Think of the egotism of a man who believes that an infinite being wants his praise!”14 Traditional Christians are still, to my knowledge, at a loss to answer this criticism. Why did God create us? He doesn’t need us, so what was He thinking? Usually the answer goes something like this: since He is the perfect being, He wants to share Himself with others. “What is man’s chief end? To glorify God, and to enjoy Him forever.”15 I have never heard consensus from traditional Christians on exactly how we are to glorify God. But all this would make sense only if there were others to glorify Him and share Himself with. There weren’t any such others, so He had to create some. This answer begs the question; the reasoning is circular. The only reason humans, and probably the angels for that matter, were created was to fulfill a need that did not exist until they were created! And then it goes back to the question of why God wants to share Himself—which has still not been answered. (Source)
14 Ingersoll, “What is Religion?” 491.
15 Elmer W. Homer, “The Master Purpose in Life,” in American Lutheran Preaching, ed.
Miles W. Krumbine (New York: Harper and Brothers, 1928), 91.

To me, the religionists have always managed to make religion look ridiculous. Both the old and new testaments have agreed that man isn’t just a creation, but progeny. And if man is in the image of God, then why is God in the image of a terrestrial being? Why does He have a head, eyes, ears, nose, hands, feet and so forth? Is it possible that He ever lived on a world like ours and was Himself resurrected and glorified, and since has become an heir of His Father? And is it possible that creation is a part of an ongoing process in which man falls, is tested, then judged and redeemed?

In Revelation, John writes of Jesus: “...and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father.” (1:6) If Jesus was Jehovah, the intercessor, the king of kings and lord of lords, the first and the last, the great I AM of the Old Testament, then He has a God and Father. And if we become joint heirs with Christ, inheriting all that the Father has, then are we not also subject to the same “God and Father”?

Regarding animals, even though they’re less intelligent than man, they, too, are eternal beings and have spirits like man. Under the atonement, they will be resurrected and they, too, will praise God, not only because of their creation, but because of their redemption.

Just food for thought.

29

"False Prophets" part notably uncomfortable

by Separation of Powers in

so, service meeting last night.

bro handling the "false prophet" part was notably disturbed.

every time he spoke of previous "expectations" his body language was like "oh my god, can you believe i'm saying this?

Cold Steel

Nathan: Then why do any damn thing they say?

That’s a question every Jehovah's Witness should be asking themselves. The Governing Body has now put themselves in the same league as the apostles and have removed all references and caveats that in the past put distance between them. Their position used to be: Well, we don’t receive revelation like the apostles did, but we do provide spiritual food to Jehovah’s people, which comes in the form of Watchtower and Awake! articles. And while our writings should not be construed as inspired in the same sense as scripture, it should be taken as spiritual “meat” in due season.

Bnybyt: At first I thought, maybe he knows TTATT and doesn't want to say anything himself. Then I thought, not this guy, he wants people in the audience to open themselves up and if anyone says anything not supportive of the current view then they'll be marking that one.

You make it sound as though these people are trying to entrap members into revealing any doubts or dissatisfactions. If the audience opens itself up and reveals those doubts, what then? Make an example of them and hope that quells any rebellion? The way things are right now, maybe there is some doubt at the top, and this is what you’re seeing.

5

Callings and Ordinations in the JWs

by Cold Steel in

is it true that the jws doesn't consider itself a church?.

if so, how do they claim the authority to baptize?

and if they are a church, are there any ordinations?

Cold Steel

Being anointed is defined as "[putting] oil on during a religious ceremony as a sign of sanctification or consecration." The term "messiah" means "anointed one," and according to scripture, there will be many false prophets and messiahs in our day. Now according to tradition, after the Messiah saves the Jews during the battle of Armageddon, he will be pass through the East Gate into the temple and be anointed by the Jews. The Muslims have even gone so far as to create a cemetery outside the front of the East Gate, supposing that the true messiah would not be able to pass through.

East Gate of Jerusalem

Jeremiah also wrote: " Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. " (Jer. 1:5). This could only be the case if Jeremiah had lived in an existence before he was born. In other words, he was preordained to be one of God's prophets.

Is it possible that there are no ordinations because they question their own authority to do it, or they just don't think it's necessary?

It sure would be nice to have a GB member on this board to give some "light."

24

Funny demon conversation

by problemaddict in

minimus inspired me to recall a crazy conversation i had with a houseguest at my home while i was one of jw's and even serving.

i had a houseguest say that she couldn't sleep all night, and then she found a birthday card in her friends room that someone at work gave her innocently enough.

she burned it and said she could finally sleep.. i asked her if she knew how long ago her friends birthday was?

Cold Steel

Hi, Jeffro.

You state your beliefs, but you don't have anything to support them. Since I've never been a JW, I've never been raised to be superstitious, but I think we Americans are more open minded about such matters. I never even thought "curse" until I got home and figured, at that point, I had nothing to lose by tossing the stuff I'd picked up in Hawaii. Not my Hawaiian shirt, mind you, but just the little trinkets people had given me. And even though I was technically supposed to send the lava back, just getting rid of it seemed to do the trick. I didn't even hear of the curse until years later, nor had it ever occurred to me that an object might be imbued with an unholy power. Still, ridding myself of it seemed, at the time, to be a good idea. And it seems to have worked out for the best.

My friend is one of the most practical people I know. Not only is he an accomplished surgeon and hypnotist, he's an experienced diver and an able administrator. So we're not talking about an uneducated flake. I don't think he'd ever admit to thinking there was a curse on lava, but he adds that he, himself, wouldn't take it or possess it. I reckon he thinks it's better to err on the side of caution.

I know I'd never own another piece of the stuff.

15

Did Moses prophesy falsely? Is it always unforgivable?

by DATA-DOG in

Cold Steel

No one denies the scriptures spoke of slavery, but the Israelites were not under the same restrictions as the people who were enslaved. Thus, an Israelite father could not sell his daughter into slavery, but he could give them as wives. Nowhere is rape condoned in the scriptures you supplied.

Slavery, for good or for worse, was a practice of the times. I recommend the following for further background information.

A 'Slave' of Christ Jesus: Ancient Slavery As a Biblical Metaphor for Salvation

In our modern context, we naturally reflect on the cruel and inhumane nineteenth-century American slavery when approaching the topic. This would be harmful in the case of the ancient world, as the slavery known to the biblical writers was quite different. Generally speaking, the relationship between master and slave in the ancient world was much more civilized and compassionate than the modern model with which we are familiar.

As stated in the article, slavery then was completely different than it was later in history, such as under Rome, the Turks, and African slavery in the 18th and 19th centuries. Jesus never preached against slavery, but urged that slaves be loyal to their masters and to seek first the Kingdom of God. It is further evidence that he was no social reformer, but taught that this life was the time to prepare to meet God, and that was to take precedent over everything else. So while Jesus never condemned slavery (that wasn't his mission), he never condoned it, either. But it was part of a Law that was very moralistic in my view.

5

Callings and Ordinations in the JWs

by Cold Steel in

is it true that the jws doesn't consider itself a church?.

if so, how do they claim the authority to baptize?

and if they are a church, are there any ordinations?

Cold Steel

Is it true that the JWs doesn't consider itself a church?

If so, how do they claim the authority to baptize? And if they are a church, are there any ordinations? For example, when someone becomes a member of the Governing Body, are they ordained (as were the apostles and prophets)? Jesus Himself ordained the Twelve saying, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you and ORDAINED YOU." Since GB members like to compare themselves with the first century Twelve, shouldn't they, and the overseers and elders, be ordained?

I think they also consider themselves to be the "Kingdom" mentioned by Daniel in the second chapter?

12

I'll Take Your Literature if You Take Mine

by VM44 in

in the september, 2013 okm, september, on page 3 appears "i'll take your literature if you take mine.".

that is the proposition of some householders.

since we do not exchange our bible study aids for religious literature that disseminates error, how might we answer tactfully?

Cold Steel

On the one hand, the JWs are told that they need to understand other religions, then, on the other hand, they're told not to read anyone else's literature. Why is this? Do they fear their missionaries...er...publishers...becoming converted? Or do they fear they might see other interpretations of scripture which might make better sense.

When I took the "Bible study" the JWs first offered me, I thought it would be a Bible study. Instead, they gave me a tiny book and asked me strawman questions. As a Mormon, I didn't want to tell them of my religion, but they kept persisting in asking me. Not knowing any better, I tried reasoning with them. "If I tell you my religion," I told them, "you'll start talking about what's wrong with it rather than telling me what you think about yours." They assured me they would not, so I asked them that since I didn't agree with most of their "answers" in the book, whether it would be okay if we just proceeded with the study.

We got through that session just fine, but the next time they came, they brought an "elder" with them. This guy immediately began asking me questions and it wasn't long before I could tell he had been reading anti-Mormon literature. That was fine with me, but he began to be aggressive and eventually downright mean spirited. He leaned forward while the other two fellows looked at him as though he were Ghandi. From what he was saying, I could even tell which books he'd been reading. I persisted, answering his questions and at the end, he would barely shake my hand. When they left, the other two said they would call me for my next session. They never did. I never saw any of the three again.

If someone was going to learn about another religion, I'd expect them to read the source material including the foundational literature. I wondered how the elder would have responded had I pulled out my copy of "Dr." Walter Martin's Kingdom of the Cults and began reading to him the chapter on Jehovah's Witnesses? Wouldn't he have suggested that I read his literature instead of someone's who was so blatantly anti-JW?

So how can they know anything about a religion without reading about it? And of course there's the obvious hypocrisy in the expectation that you read their literature while they toss yours into the nearest waste bin. Obviously, most people who have religious material can answer a stupid question like, "What does this say about the solution to mankind's problems?" Gee, what if the guy answers the question, what do you do then?

If publishers agree to read someone's literature if he reads theirs, can they get in trouble with their leaders? What if the guy's an elder? Does he have permission to read it? How does it work??

15

The Governing Body Are Like Sea Captains On The Titanic Encouraging Passengers Not To Get In The Life Boats Till It Sinks

by frankiespeakin in

they are in serious denial over all the evidence that the ship/organization is going down in the sea of the ocean of information hit by the internet iceberg.

they want to milk the rank and file from as much($&labor) as they can get from them before the ship sinks into notorious oblivian.. we should expect this mentality to lead them into desperate measures lacking all sense just as hitler faced his last days directing his generals into deadly manuvers dispite their objections.

a desperate man driven by fear and in denial rushing headlong into defeat so obvious, some high ranking military men tried to kill him but failed.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/adolf_hitler.

Cold Steel

Let's not get overly dramatic here. We have to remember that the Jehovah's Witnesses are a flash in a very small pan.

And you should not underestimate the power of mind control the organization exerts. The greatest threat to the Society is, frankly, its awful eschatology and scriptural exegeses. It would be VERY difficult, if not impossible, to convert people who knew anything about biblical eschatology and even basic scriptural interpretation.

Armageddon, for example, is a deathblow to the so-called "bible scholars" of the Watchtower Society. Individual members who know and have read about Armageddon in its proper context know that the battle will be fought, not in Bethel and not in the Western Hemisphere, but in Jerusalem. This battle is designed specifically to bring the Jews to Christ. One reason the Jews rejected Jesus was that they were looking for a military savior, not a spiritual savior. Their messianic expectations were to be rescued from a power of a despotic leader of great power...like Rome. Thus, when three Roman legions converged on the holy city, the Jews expected their messiah to appear and save them. (After all, it was prophesied by many of their prophets, like Isaiah, Ezekiel, Zechariah and Malachi.) And they would have been right had they picked the right time and the right enemy. But nearly all Christians know about this and have written about it. But the GB has decreed that the Society's members would be in a state of apostasy if they read literature by other Christian sects. So the JW membership live in ignorance reading, not the Bible, but articles about the Bible; and stilted articles at that.

To faithful members of the Society I say, just read what the Bible says about Armageddon and see if the GB's interpretation makes sense. What the GB does to remain in power is to put themselves into the same category as the ancient apostles, then they have the membership read and discuss the publications of the church. Those publications use an unusual, but effective, mind control device. First, it asks a seemingly innocent rhetorical question, then it provides an answer from the Bible. "Where and when will the battle of Armageddon be fought? The Bible provides the answer. It will be fought all over the world and seek the destruction of Jehovah's people." And that's why we have former members on this board who still think Armageddon is what the Society told them it was!

It's one reason that no one takes the JWs seriously, not that the Society cares. But as more members begin to pursue higher education (against the GB's wishes), you can expect more of an exodus. But the religion really is insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

24

Funny demon conversation

by problemaddict in

minimus inspired me to recall a crazy conversation i had with a houseguest at my home while i was one of jw's and even serving.

i had a houseguest say that she couldn't sleep all night, and then she found a birthday card in her friends room that someone at work gave her innocently enough.

she burned it and said she could finally sleep.. i asked her if she knew how long ago her friends birthday was?

Cold Steel

-= My True Story =-

I’m not overly superstitious, but years ago in Hawaii, I had a spate of bad luck. The horrible sunburn I got was no mystery; neither was the horrible stomach flu; however, every time I went to Honolulu in a friend’s car, the damn thing broke down. It got so bad that I refused to go by car and I resolved to go by bus. It broke down and I had to wait three hours for a new bus to be dispatched. Then one day, I got off the bus at a place called “Valley of the Temple” to buy a calculator for a math course I was taking. The next four buses failed to show and then a couple of big Polynesians who had been drinking walk by and they beat me to a pulp. I eventually was able to flee and they were close behind. I started knocking on doors randomly but couldn’t stay long enough to wait for an answer. Finally, I knocked on a door and immediately a huge Tongan opened the door. He grabbed me and said, “Who did this to you?” All I could do was point and he rushed outside.

The bad guys took one look at him and suddenly remembered they had to be somewhere else. This fellow who helped me—his family was Seventh Day Adventists—and he helped treat my wounds and then, with his family, drove me 30 miles to a 24-hour clinic next to my University. I’ll never forget what he did for me. I had to wear a waterproof nylon cast and was in such pain for a couple of weeks that I was popping Percodan like M&Ms! After two weeks, I went for a dive with my dive class and bought a new facemask and snorkel (my old ones being stolen by the muggers). Halfway out to the dive site, the mask began leaking and I came this close to drowning. Only by sheer will did I manage to make it back to the dive site. The instructor’s son, not realizing what the problem was, tried his best to make me stop using my regulator and kept pulling it out of my mouth. Later, when he learned what the situation was, he apologized, but he’d pretty much done all he could to kill me.

It was one thing after another. Then I left the island and headed back home. But the bad luck continued. Then I became really superstitious. I began to rid myself of everything I’d gotten in Hawaii. I gave away shirts and souvenirs and then...everything went back to normal. I didn’t know why and I didn’t care.

Then a few years later, I was talking to a friend of mine, a Navy Captain who had been assigned to head up all three Navy hospitals in Hawaii. I told him my experience expecting him to laugh it off. Instead, he asked, “Was one of the things you threw away a piece of lava?”

“Yeah,” I said. “It was from the big island and carved into the form of Madam Pele, a local goddess.”

He nodded and said, “Well, that was probably it.” He went on to explain that it wasn’t that it was carved in the form of a goddess that was the problem. It was the lava itself. In fact, he said, he had visited the visitor’s center on the island and had seen a room with letters posted by people who had taken lava from the big island and had been smitten with horrible luck. Eventually, they sent the lava back with a letter apologizing for taking it. A friend had given me the lava form as a welcoming gift to Oahu. I explained to my Navy friend that I hadn’t returned the lava, but had just thrown it away. He shrugged and said, “Whatever works.”

“Tom,” I said. “You’re pretty level headed. Do you believe all this ‘curse’ business?”

“No,” he replied. “But then, I wouldn’t take any lava away from the island, and if I had a piece, I’d probably get rid of it.” He said the visitor’s center gets hundreds of letters with pieces of lava enclosed. They posted the letters and rotated them frequently.

“But you said you weren’t superstitious,” I said.

“Yep,” he replied, leaning back in his chair. “But why take the chance?”

Lava Rock Curse
How to Avoid the Lava Curse
Snopes Review of the Lava Curse: TRUE!

29

"False Prophets" part notably uncomfortable

by Separation of Powers in

so, service meeting last night.

bro handling the "false prophet" part was notably disturbed.

every time he spoke of previous "expectations" his body language was like "oh my god, can you believe i'm saying this?

Cold Steel

HamsterBait: Even the Revelation (anti)Climax book says that the anointed resurrected after 1918 have a part in transmitting new understanding to the BOrg in our day. They haven’t done a very good job have they?

I visited the JW website a year or two ago and the explanation given was that they don’t consider themselves prophets, nor do they produce anything that could be placed besides the Bible as scripture. Now, seeking to find that same caveat, I went to the website again today and, though it took me awhile to find it, it seems that the Governing Body is now putting itself on the same level as the ancient apostles. For example:

This is far more aggressive than it was previously. The Governing Body seems to be consolidating its power, but it needs to explain just how it got this inspiration. Certainly their claim to speak for God places them in the position of claiming to be prophets. And if they are prophets, what they write is as binding on people as the scriptures were in the days of the apostles. Why try to equivocate?

There is also an implied claim to be prophets in a 1979 - 80 Awake on alien life. After discussing the ideas on this, they say that there cannot be any alien life forms on other planets, because the “slave has not heard about this” and Jehovah will not do anything unless he informs his servants the prophets. (THEM in other words!)

Can you get me the reference on this. I’d love to see it. If the Awake! articles are written or overseen by the slave, why does the author of this story write as though the Governing Body doesn’t read it.

The scripture by Amos also is horribly abused. The Bible never claims to reveal everything to God’s servants, the prophets. Life on other worlds does not pertain to the inhabitants of this world, and I suspect that when God speaks to prophets on other worlds, he doesn’t reveal the affairs of this world. It would be like saying there are no black holes in the universe because the “slave has not heard about this.” There was a time when black holes were theoretical. None had been found, but astrophysicists said they were distinctly plausible. Well, the Governing Body hadn’t heard anything about them, so the logic expressed above is as foolish as trying to pin down the year of Armageddon! Geesh, the audacity of these guys. And the amazing thing is that they hide behind their publications. You don’t see articles by them where they take bold stands; they let their staff writers pass on the information so no one knows quite where this spiritual “food” is coming from. They say it’s from God, but their foundational claims are non-existent.